Isn't it amazing how easy it is to trust sometimes? Think about it...we really do put a lot of trust in things/others. Most of the time, it is something known as blind trust (or blind faith).
At a restaurant we trust that the silverware is clean and the food is cooked properly. On the road we trust that the driver next to us is paying attention to everyone else. At night we trust that our alarm clock will go off at the time we set it for. We trust that the money we deposit in the bank will be there tomorrow. We trust that when we leave our homes, with the lights on and all, that we will come home to see it still standing. We trust the engines on the plane when we are flying thousands of feet in the air. We trust that the elevator cable will hold all the weight (not that I'm big). We trust that the water we drink from our faucet is safe and healthy. We trust that our child's car seat is properly installed and that they aren't flying around in the backseat. We trust that our heat works in the winter and the air conditioning in the summer. We trust that our toothpaste cleans our teeth. We trust that our contact solution is safe to put in our eyes.
We trust a lot. Without much thought at all.
Why then, is it so hard for us to trust God? Why is it so hard to believe/trust/acknowledge/praise/pray to the one who believes in us with everything He has. Why is it so difficult to give our all to the one who gave it all?
Something to chew on...
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33 comments:
I'd argue it SHOULD be difficult.
Those things you describe in the second paragraph can all be trusted easily because they are repeatable. You can repeatedly 'test' them. Your drinking water has been clean thousands of times before, you've been on an airplane, you've been on an elevator. Even more, if you wanted to test them, you could do it again and record the data.
That kind of trust is not blind. It is based on proof and evidence, whether you realize it or not.
I argue that blind faith is not a good thing. Belief in God is really the only area of modern society that nobody criticizes believing blindly. You can't, it would be like criticizing an opinion. And as everybody knows, an opinion is never right or wrong. Right?
Trusting that God exists (and furthermore, has a plan for you) is difficult because there is no way to test the experience repeatedly. In fact, "testing God" is specifically discouraged by every kind of Christianity I've heard of.
Even so, you cannot test your trust in God. There is no way to say for sure what God does, and how he may act. Because of this, you cannot collect the same kind of data (like the airplane, drinking water, or elevator examples) on God.
I agree with your first points. However, I have to disagree with the following statement:
"In fact, "testing God" is specifically discouraged by every kind of Christianity I've heard of."
I'm not sure what "kind" of Christianity you are talking about, but it is definitely not mine. My God put His cards on the table for me. In the words of Rob Bell, "I thank God for anybody anywhere who is pointing people to the mysteries of God. But those people would all tell you to think long and hard about what they are saying and doing and creating. Don't swallow it uncritically. Think about it. Wrestle with it." My God said the same, "Test Me. Probe Me. Think about Me."
God is most certainly testable. I test Him everyday. In prayer. In praise. In trust. It also, is very repeatable. Just because I do not have something solid, that I can see and feel, does not mean that blind faith is bad or non existent.
I think I know where you were subtly trying to take this. However, since you cannot know all evidence, it is possible that evidence exists that proves God's existence, or at least supports his existence. Therefore, it is possible that God exists. If it is possible, then faith has its place.
I agree 100% that it is possible. Anything, in that way, is technically POSSIBLE. It's possible that tomorrow I'll wake up with a third arm.
But that faith doesn't really have its place in real life.
The sort of test I was talking about has real, tangible results. All of the examples you gave in your blog post were things that COULD be seen or felt. So, trusting and testing God does NOT have the same sort of results.
That's all I was really saying. Where did you think I was going with this?
;-)
"But that faith doesn't really have its place in real life."
"in your blog post were things that COULD be seen or felt. So, trusting and testing God does NOT have the same sort of results."
This is where we fundamentally and philosophically differ. God reveals Himself each and everyday. There are thousands of miracles that happen that science cannot even begin to explain. Faith is an unbelievable gift and the "tests" and "tangibles" are very visible.
Imagine there is a circle, and in that circle is all the knowledge there possibly is. What part of that circle would your knowledge and my knowledge take up?
1/1,000th? 1/100,000th? 1/1,000,000th?
Just a dot in the circle of knowledge. So how can anyone say that God is not possible? How do we know what is in that circle...outside of our own dot?
God is very possible, it just takes faith to see the evidence.
Again, I never said God is not possible. I freely admit that yes, God may exist. But so far, I haven't seen anything to convince me that he does, indeed, exist.
I still think his existence is possible.
"Faith is an unbelievable gift and the "tests" and "tangibles" are very visible."
They aren't tangible to me. They aren't tangible and visible in the same way clean drinking water is. They really aren't.
The 'tangibles' you attribute to God may have other explanations. I'm not saying they CAN'T be God. I'm saying that calling certain events "God's work" is, at the very least, premature. We don't know for sure. That's where faith comes in. You believe and have faith that certain things are God's work.
What I don't understand is why having this faith is considered good. Why is it 'better' to have faith without sufficient evidence?
Do you see what I mean? This is not me trying to slam your views at all. This is me being genuinely frustrated and inquisitive of religious thought.
Why do you think it is better to have faith without evidence? How does that show strength? It seems to me that kind of faith, anywhere else, would label somebody a fool. Imagine if I believed there was life on the moon without evidence. I'd be laughed at.
Galileo said the Earth was round...he was laughed at wasn't he? A lot of times, we do not need tangible evidence to know something is true.
I see evidence everyday that shows and proves to me that there is a Creator. That proof is very tangible and concrete to me.
I never said I think it is better to have faith without evidence, because I believe there are plenty of examples of evidence.
I believe in the Christian way of life and that Jesus Christ died so that I could truly live. I believe in a God that is loving and gracious to His children and that we should mirror in that image. I believe because I can and because there is no evidence for me to believe otherwise.
Several times you mentioned being laughed at or being considered a fool for one's thoughts.
Personally, I could care less what people think of me or my beliefs. I would rather be laughed at and called a fool than give up what I believe or defend evidence that I see with my own eyes.
If I am a fool for Christ, whose fool are you?
Galileo is an awful example. He didn't believe the Earth was round based on a gut feeling. He HAD tangible evidence. People laughed at him because they were using the Biblical record as proof the Earth was flat. They (and the Bible) ended up being wrong.
First, your statement has nothing to do with the above commentary, but thank you for your input.
Second, I'm not sure where you get your Biblical "knowledge," but Moses was actually one of the first people (almost 3,000 years ago)to claim that the earth was indeed round. It wasn't then proven to be round until about 500 years ago. The Koran (copying the Old Testament also declared the Earth to be round around 1400 years ago).
Again, thanks for the input :(
Is. 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in...
Job 26:10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.
Prov. 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth...
Skeptics will assume from these verses a concept of a flat, circular, pancake-like earth. In each case, the Hebrew word here is exactly the same, as Strong's tells us:
2329. chuwg, khoog; from H2328; a circle:--circle, circuit, compass.
And here is where we alert the reader to another key word-concept that is missing in Hebrew: There was no varying word for a "sphere" - a three-dimensional circle. It is not that the Hebrews or anyone else lacked the concept of sphericity (for obviously, they could conceive of it plainly when, for example, they ate pomegranates for breakfast!), but that they simply did not create a second word for it.
Some may cite in reply here the KJV version of Is. 22:18, "He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house." The Hebrew word here, however, is:
1754. duwr, dure; from H1752; a circle, ball or pile:--ball, turn, round about.
I argue that your "evidence" of God's existence is not, in fact, evidence. It's circumstantial evidence, meaning you couldn't find any other explanation, so it must've been God. Of course I don't know specifics, but this has been my unanimous experience in the past.
"If I am a fool for Christ, whose fool are you?"
What do you mean by this? I'm proud to not need someone to 'own' me or my life. I'm in control of my own actions, for better or for worse. It isn't a struggle for control, either. I don't always want that control. But it's there.
I don't need to be a fool for anybody. I don't need that kind of validation.
And yes, Galileo is a horrible example, and it DOES pertain to your statements, because you USED his situation as an example. You sidestepped it by saying it was irrelevent. It is relevant.
"meaning you couldn't find any other explanation, so it must've been God."
And you know that I came to this conclusion because...???
Galileo, going back to my original post, is completely irrelevant. I was merely using a "what if" as Dave did with the possibility of waking up with a third arm (which, I might add, is much worse than the Galileo example).
Bottom line guys, I trust God and God only. I do not need to defend my position to people who will never see the way I see or see the evidence that I see on a daily basis. It would be an endless debate and therefore, it ends.
Hi guys! Ryan, I hope you don't mind if I add my 2 cents in here.
Dave, it actually makes me really happy that you're questioning Ryan like this. I think its important to question and challenge truths. And that's what Ryan is sharing...the truth-it will always stand up to every question and challenge.
Unfortunately, I am not able to join in on the particulars, and try to argue along, because I'm just not as smart as either of you. (I am enjoying reading this and learning a lot!) But I do know and love God with everything I am. And fortunately, I know that God knows all things. And so I'm just going to pray Dave that God would reveal Himself to you in a very real way. There's too much I've experienced in my own personal life where I could ever deny God being real, intimate, loving, kind, sovereign, etc. etc. He wants to do that in every single person's life, including YOURS!
Dave, you are a very intelligent gentleman, and I bet the Lord takes SUCH delight in you! I'm praying the Lord would BLESS you deeply, and reveal Himself to you in a very real way.
(By the way Dave...you might be interested in this book, if you like to read. Its called "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. It's been many many years since I've read it, but it sounds to me like this might be a book you'd enjoy.)
Ryan...thanks for loving God. You're wisdom and insight blesses Him. And BTW I agree with everything you say...as much as I can "track along" with you! : ) Lil' Miss looked ABSOLUTELY PRECIOUS on Easter!! (As she always does!)
Love, Kate
Your thoughts are worth more than 2 cents. Thanks for commenting :)
Kate:
Thanks for your kind words :-)
Actually, I HAVE read that book by Lee Strobel. My recollection is Lee explaining that God exists because he has experiences that cannot be explained otherwise.
On the whole, I was disappointed with it. There was nothing that convinced me more. It seemed to be a book filled with "here's what happened to me". Those stories don't work for me.
They are circumstantial evidence, where people cannot find an immediate cause, so they say "wow, how awesome is God? He did this for me/her/whoever!"
If I had any book to recommend to you, it would be "Letter to a Christian Nation". Sadly, I don't know many christians who read this book with an open mind. But, if you feel the urge, pick it up. The book is very short and easy to digest.
I'd be interested in your response.
Thanks!
Ah yes, the great "theologian" Sam Harris...
I actually almost picked that book up at the local Christian book store (yes, it was on the shelves), but then I came home and did some further research on a man that I was already quite skeptical of (for numerous reasons).
This is a quote from an article that I will post below and one of the reasons I would never want, much less care, to read what Mr. Harris has to say:
"However, what has somehow been overlooked, until now, is that Harris not only believes in reincarnation, Buddhism, Hinduism, and a wide assortment of New Age mysticism, but in abandoning what he considers to be the "immorality" of Christianity and its teachings of natural moral law and the universal rights of mankind, he alternatively supports water-boarding and other forms of torture so long as such practices are used against Muslims and others he disapproves of. Needless to say, he was also an early supporter of the war in Iraq, including the bombing of civilians, et al. Clearly, regardless of anyone's personal belief system, such views regarding the treatment of innocent people should be deeply disturbing."
The article title is Sam Harris: Believing in Almost Anything.
It is an excellent article that provides much thought and research into the mystery surrounding what the heck Sam Harris believes and why it just doesn't make much sense.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/theroux1.html
Before I even think about the rest of your post, let me respond to this:
"Ah yes, the great "theologian" Sam Harris...
I actually almost picked that book up at the local Christian book store (yes, it was on the shelves), but then I came home and did some further research on a man that I was already quite skeptical of (for numerous reasons)."
1.) Sam Harris never claims to be a theologian.
2.) Good. You almost picked the book up and read it. Why didn't you? Because he is an atheist? You'd rather read about the author BEFORE you read the book? Shouldn't the most open-minded approach be to read the book with no idea who the author is and evaluate it on its own merits?
You saw a book that might conflict with your beliefs, so you decided not to read it, using the excuse that you'd rather research the author first. That's intellectually irresponsible.
Why not just read it, and then be that much more educated about the opposing viewpoint? Were you afraid it might make sense to you?
Let me answer your questions and comments:
1) Notice my punctuation use around the word "theologian"
2) I knew enough about Sam Harris and his religious/world viewpoints before I saw that book on the shelf. Yes, I usually like to read up on the author or content before I choose a book to read. I think most avid readers would agree.
As to reading it for the viewpoints. Again, I already feel convicted in my belief in God. Jesus is the only evidence I need to believe that claim. If I felt empty in my faith or that I was searching for other viewpoints, then I would. Frankly, I'm not. So why waste money on something that will have no impact on my beliefs or thinking?
First of all, I believe reading "Letter to a Christian Nation" for yourself (and perhaps even "The End of Faith") would be an intellectually responsible thing to do. You do want to get all the sides of the story right? (Nudge, nudge) I have read a great deal of books by authors whom I despised and found the experiences to be deeply enlightening - whether I agreed with the positions or not.
Second, that article on Sam Harris is despicable. Did you research that author before you read his lies? I actually find the quote somewhat funny. In Harris's "End of Faith" he has added an appendix where he responds to several letters he received concerning the book. (His responses became the foundation for "Letter to a Christian Nation" by the way) One of these letters was from a group of atheists who believed he had in fact taken too soft a line against Eastern religions (Buddhism, Hindusim and "New Age Mysticism". Harris's response speaks for itself if you ever are in Borders and would like to open up to the back and read for yourself. It is readily apparent through interviews, his books, his plentiful arguments, and direct quotes that he does not believe in reincarnation, Buddhism, Hinduism, or Mysticism. The entire book "End of Faith" (it's even in the title) is about eliminating belief systems that are not based on real evidence, but faith. Furthermore, this author you've presented is an idiot. How one can believe both in Hinduism and Buddhism is beyond me, as those religions are contradictory.
Harris does take on the subjects of terrorism, torture, and "collateral damage". In "End of Faith" he does say that torture is morally justifiable, but only in a "ticking bomb" scenario. He also points out that there's no clear evidence that torture works, and that the use of torture should be based on clear evidence that such practices work. Never once in the books, articles, or interviews I have watched does he mention torturing only Muslims. He strongly disapproves of the Christian belief system as much, if not more than the Islamic system.
He did support the war in Iraq (as did you, and you still do so this is a non-issue). "End of Faith" does take on the issue of collateral damage. Harris obviously is not a blood-thirsty maniac as this article wants you to believe. He does not support bombing civilians. However, he does support careful military actions that do have a chance of killing innocents if every reasonable precaution is taken to avoid these casualties. He says in the best case scenarios, civilian casualties come from the technological boundaries of our weapons.
Harris is not a religious man (and obviously doesn't believe in reincarnation, Buddhism, etc.), doesn't support torture, killing Muslims, or recklessly bombing civilians.
I understand your stance and defense of Mr. Harris. However, neither of us personally know him and cannot truly discuss what it is that he really believes. Therefore, it is all about perception. You seem very passionate about his views, and although I strongly disagree, opinions are opinions. Some people may see him as intelligent (which he may very well be), and some of us may see him as misguided (which he may very well be).
Only time will tell...
Also, just to comment, I do not think that by NOT reading his work, or work like his, that I (or anyone in my position) is intellectually irresponsible. That is certainly a "circumstantial" belief. Frankly, in my own life, there are many, many, many more things to read that I would consider MUCH more intellectually stimulating.
I meant it would be intellectually responsible to read works by an author before commenting in-depth on his views or making those kind of serious allegations.
Hi guys! Ryan, hope you don’t mind if I “throw another penny in the pot” to add my now 3 CENTS!
First of all, I am intrigued by this ongoing conversation. Again, let me remind you that I am not even CLOSE to as intellectual or as smart as the three of you. I’m just a stay at home mom who loves Jesus. My most intellectual reading lately is Baby Einstein. : )
Dave, I can understand your views on “The Case for Christ”. I honestly don’t remember the specifics of it, since its been so many years since I read it. It’s clear to me that you’re not looking for more people’s “opinions” or “perspectives”. I get the impression that what you need is “hard evidence” for yourself. Which is absolutely valid. I once heard someone say that being a Christian doesn’t mean you just shoot your brain to the moon. (I forget what he said after that…err!) But you (and Josh) (and Ryan for that matter), being such intelligent people SHOULD have answers to your questions when it comes to faith and Jesus.
It puts a smile on my heart to see this conversation play out, because it shows me that you (Dave and Josh) are looking for SOMETHING. Or else you wouldn’t read the books you do, or even be writing on this blog for that matter. I’ve been a Christian for 12 years and have heard A LOT of teachings on Jesus, the Bible, etc., and I am convinced that with ALL the research in the world, the “case for Christ” (pardon the “copy” of a book title here) can absolutely be proven and convince even the most scholarly people. (It just certainly won’t be from ME!!) Haha!
BUT….more importantly, I think each individual needs to have an ENCOUNTER with the Living God, Himself. ESPECIALLY those who aren’t willing to “shoot their brains to the moon”. I’m reminded of a story in Acts 9:1-19. I would encourage you to read it. Paul HATED Christians, everything they were about, and persecuted them relentlessly. But God did a miraculous intervention in his life, and he was just ABLE to believe after that. (And if you’re familiar with Paul, he went on to have an INCREDIBLE ministry of healing, church planting, and AMAZING work for Christ.) What I get from this story, in comparing to both of you, is that I would LOVE to see God do a MIRACULOUS intervention into both of your lives, where you’ll just be able to see His love, sovereignty, forgiveness, goodness, etc…the list is never-ending. You said yourself in reading The Case for Christ that other people’s testimonies, opinions, viewpoints, etc. just don’t work for you. I can respect and understand that. That’s why I’m praying for GOD to just show you.
So, if you’re up to it, maybe just ask Him to do so. What can it hurt? It’s obvious to me that you’re searching for SOMETHING. Why not just go straight to the Source and ask for the answers? I know our God can reveal them to you and give you the “hard evidence” you’re looking for.
Oh dear Dave and Josh, whether you believe it or not, you are oh so precious to God! He is WILLING AND ABLE to reveal Himself to you. WHEN He does, whether it be tonight, or 20 years from now, hopefully I’m still blogging and you can tell me all about it!
BLESSINGS upon BLESSINGS to you and yours, whomever you are Dave and Josh!
(And BLESSINGS to you Ryan, but I know who you are, cousin-in-law by marriage! : ) Let’s just say brother in Christ!)
~Kate
Hi guys, my wife Kate mentioned this conversation to me... I just got done reading through it.
I was brought up by 2 loving parents who raised me to follow Jesus. A lot of times children’s faith is based on another who is close to them, but in order to have a real relationship with Jesus. I needed to have my own experiences, which would lead to my own belief.
I had given my life to Jesus in the 7th grade, and truly had experienced God. All my friends at school were not followers of Jesus though, as we grew older, it was clear that my free time was not going to be spent in church. It was going to be handing out… from that point on I made about every wrong decision you can think of.
Fast forward to my freshman year in college, I had never stopped believing in Jesus, but my mind set was that I was young and just having some fun. Because I did have a real encounter with God earlier in life, I could not hide the fact that I felt better with him than I did ignoring him and doing my own thing. It took God really shaking me up to get things back on track. In the spring of my first year in college, I remember waking up and being in so much pain spiritually, that I asked God to change my life, even if I was not willing to change it. For some reason I could not bring myself to make major changes, I was just in a rut. I ended up getting kicked out of college, not for grades… After that I was back at home with my parents but still not planning to change much and still ignoring God.
One night, God gave me a taste of what it would be like to be fully separated from him. I think this is the evidence I needed at the time to know the path I was going down would only lead to death. I had an encounter that night spiritually where God removed himself completely from me, I though I had died and was in complete darkness. I had my eyes open but could not see a single glare of light. I can’t decribe the despair I felt, this was truly hell. Only after that did I realize that the real definition of hell is separation from God. That is what I experienced.
That was enough to scare me straight, after that I made major changes in my life. I did a complete 180, since then I have been able to experience true joy, love, and peace in addition to the miraculous. My wife and I see miracles and experience them for ourselves, this is what builds our faith and the faith of our church. Check out my wife’s blog sometime, she shares some of the things we experience that are miraculous. http://mylifeasamom-kate.blogspot.com/
Getting back to the theme of the comments, to believe something there should be evidence of it first, not faith. I think a lot of times evidence and faith can be closely related. Have you ever done something for a first time? Of course, there is a first time for everything. Before you did that thing, what convinced you to do it? Maybe you saw someone else do it? Maybe you heard about it? Maybe you read about it? There is no doubt in you life that you have put faith in something that you have not experienced yourself but you have evidence to show that it can be done. Why is a miraculous experience not evidence? If someone you trust tells you that something miraculous happened to them, you either have to accept there experience as evidence that the miraculous can happen, or you have to write them off as delusional.
Unbelief and belief can be a self fulfilling prophesy. If you don’t believe something unless you see it or experience it, then you will never believe it unless you see it. If you do believe something, and it’s real, then you will be in a position to experience it. This is exactly the case with anything miraculous, to experience God, if he exists, then we need to take a step of faith and believe that he can interact with us. What’s it going to hurt? If he doesn’t exist, then you won’t experience him, but if he does, and you make a valid effort, wouldn’t it be neat to have an experience with the creator of the universe?
Boy that jdb is smart. And devastatingly handsome. : )
Thanks Jon and Kate. I appreciate the commentary. Also, Jon, I loved the following example. Kudos.
"Getting back to the theme of the comments, to believe something there should be evidence of it first, not faith. I think a lot of times evidence and faith can be closely related. Have you ever done something for a first time? Of course, there is a first time for everything. Before you did that thing, what convinced you to do it? Maybe you saw someone else do it? Maybe you heard about it? Maybe you read about it? There is no doubt in you life that you have put faith in something that you have not experienced yourself but you have evidence to show that it can be done. Why is a miraculous experience not evidence? If someone you trust tells you that something miraculous happened to them, you either have to accept there experience as evidence that the miraculous can happen, or you have to write them off as delusional."
After a few of these comments regarding personal faith stories, I would like to share a bit of my religious background (and perhaps some of Dave's with you) that may help put our comments in context.
I was brought up in a home absolutely devoid of religion. For the first 16 years of my life, my parents NEVER went to church (not even on Christmas or Easter), never mentioned any relationship with God or Christianity, and never engaged in a religious discussion with either myself or my brother. Religion and Christianity simply did not have a place in our household. My parents still have not discussed their religious beliefs with myself or my brother. These topics just were not (and still are not) a part of our immediate family discourse. My mother's parents are are followers of Christian Science and are devout non-evangelizing Christians. I have to admit I am entirely unaware of the religious beliefs of my father's parents. I have never really been curious enough to ask my parents or grandparents about their religious beliefs and they have never offered them. Personally, it is a very low priority of mine to know these things, and it always has been. My family always celebrated Christian holidays (Christmas and Easter) but never discussed the religious significance of either of the events. My mom always lauded the holidays as wonderful opportunities to visit with family and share in loving and memorable experiences.
I did believe in a god during my childhood, though I never prayed, asked one for anything, or thought he had any effect - positive or negative - on my life.
My parents taught my brother and I the very best in how to treat others. They were completely and wholly devoted to us and our upbringing. They taught us to be dedicated, passionate, kind, loving, and to not take ourselves too seriously all the time. They instilled in us the values of education, personal growth, justice, and love for family. They loved us unconditionally. They never mentioned God. They never told us to treat others with dignity, respect, and compassion so that we would one day go to heaven or escape hell. They taught us that everybody had a story to tell, and that it would always be in our best interest to listen. They taught us to treat others with respect because it was simply the right thing to do. As children, we accepted this reasoning because it came from our parents, nothing more was needed. They knew we would each find out for ourselves later why we were to treat others this way.
In 8th grade, Dave (the same one commenting here) invited me to a church youth group event. Dave had been going to church since he was born, and I was new and intimidated. I followed because he was a friend - and I wanted friends. I began to go on my own to youth group events, Sunday school, and sermons. For a 15 year old, it all made sense. Christianity taught people to be good so we would go to heaven. God sent his only son to die for us on the cross to forgive our sins - just as we should forgive the sins of others. It felt good to be a Christian, and I must admit I immediately liked my new personal label. I started praying to God.
In high school I became highly involved (as did Dave) with the church. We helped to create a Wednesday night youth service. We played in the youth praise band. We gave sermons on Easter sunday. (The pastor even told me I should go to seminary and study to be a pastor myself - because of my passion and devotion to Christ.) We both took leadership roles in the youth group. We prayed together.
Then college came. We met people of different backgrounds, upbringings, religious beliefs, sexualities. I began to read the Bible on my own for the first time instead of listening to the youth leader or pastor every Sunday morning. I had always been one to think critically on everything I truly believed in and held dear in my life. The exception was my religion. I accepted Christianity without ever critically analyzing it. I became involved because of friends and it all sounded good. As I analyzed the Bible and my own faith, Christianity fell apart. I have always been a huge fan of the Sermon on the Mount, but it seemed so many Christians just weren't following it. They banded together in their intolerance of homosexuals. They unequivocally damned Muslims, Mormons, Buddhists, and atheists to eternal suffering in hell. They were self-righteous and wholly convinced. So much of what I began to read in the Bible contradicted what Jesus himself had preached to his followers on that lonely hill north of Jerusalem. The Bible metaphorically fell to pieces in my hands every time I picked it up to read it. Job had always been my favorite book. A man that regardless of what bad happens in his life and how much he suffers praises his God. I read it again, hoping for comfort and answers to all of these nagging questions I was having about my faith. God took everything from Job. He killed his family. He put him through unimaginable suffering. For what? To prove to the devil that Job would still praise him. What had Job done? Job loved and feared God before God used (and abused) him to prove a point. I began to read more. This loving and compassionate God - this perfect God - had killed so many in the Old Testament. He murdered and tortured. Out of spite or jealousy. He seemed so... human to me, so imperfect. I hid all of this from my youth pastor, Christian friends, and girlfriend of 2 years.
I strove so hard to find what I needed to truly believe in God. I was trying with all of my might to settle these doubts and be confident in Christianity again. I spent nights crying about it, frantically reading through my Bible, e-mailing my pastor and Christian friends, and scouring the internet for any kind of help. The answers I got were all the same, and disappointingly inadequate. God works in mysterious ways. They seemed to be such cruel ways to me. I had never truly believed that God had ever spoken to me - even during my most devoted years. I kept reading the Bible, searching for answers. Things weren't adding up. I was frantic and confused. Dragons never lived amongst humans, the first born sons of Egypt were never all murdered (by God nonetheless), there never was a massive flood that covered the Earth and destroyed all its life.
I kept coming across passages that no reasonable man could believe, obvious mistakes, contradictions from one book to another. This was a destructive and worrisome time for me. I was trying so hard to rebuild my faith, and every attempt was simply chipping away at it, until there was nearly nothing left. I found nothing wrong with homosexuals, and could not take God's word on it. I did not really thing non-Christians would burn in hell for eternity. I actually believed nothing would happen after I died. That only the memory of me would continue on and my body would lay in the ground.
I can remember the day I left Christianity vividly. It happened to be a Sunday morning. I was on winter break from school and had gone to church hoping to have my faith reignited. The music I had enjoyed so much meant nothing to me. I disagreed with everything from the pastor's sermon. I refused communion. I left the church and drove straight home. On the way I stopped in an empty parking lot, turned the music off and said aloud to myself, "There is no God. It is just us. Only us and nothing more. And that is why we have to treat each other with dignity, compassion, and respect. There is no one and nothing else that can."
During my freshman year of college, just weeks before Christmas, I walked away from Christianity. There was no event that shattered my faith. No horrible or saddening catalyst to drive a wedge between my values and Christianity. When I arrived home that day I took my worn Bible with the dog-eared pages and comments in the margin and placed it in a shoe box so my family wouldn't see it and ask questions. I walked downstairs, outside and threw the box in the trashcan at the curb. There was no remorse, no regret. Absolutely none. I had been liberated. I felt free. For the next few weeks I felt closer to my family, friends, and every human being I met or had contact with. There was something special in every bit of contact. There is nothing more than us. Nobody was watching out to make sure we'd all be fine. Just people caring for other people.
And that is how I left the faith.
Josh,
On July 9, 2005 I became a Christian. For over 20 years, I never knew God personally. I believed He existed, but I never cared to form a relationship with Him. On my own, I developed ill feelings toward organized religion, giving money to the church, and people saying I wouldn't go to Heaven if I didn't believe. In fact, I probably would have made fun of those same youth groups kids back then.
When I met Megan, her and her family were devout Christians. I slowly began going to church with them on the weekends. To be frank, I disliked it a lot. I was lost, uncomfortable and didn't really care to be there.
Then, Meg and I went to RiverTree. There was something about it. A loving, caring, compassionate, "I won't judge you" atmosphere. I slowly began to WANT to go to church on my own. Most of the time, I would sit there in church and questions would be running through my head..."why am I here?" "What if it isn't true?" "What if Jesus is a joke?"
I had these thoughts for sometime. Then, one day during church service, it clicked. God spoke to me during that service. I wish I could say I was making that up or that I was just saying this stuff to "witness." But, I'm not. I felt words and a comfort in my soul. I began to ask the same questions, but something in me that night laughed. That's right, in my soul that night I was laughing at doubt. Laughing that I ever thought that way. Laughing that I ever questioned Jesus. It was at that moment, that I put my life into Jesus. 3 years ago, I would have laughed at someone who told me that story and said they had some issues. But, it was one of the most poewrful things I have ever experienced in my life.
I, like you, had questions. I still do. However, sometimes we want too much too fast. We want to think that we are smarter than religion. We get into habits of trying to read every book and article about faith. Picking and choosing what we like and do not like. Basically, making our own beliefs. If we knew all the answers, what would that do to humanity? What would that make us? Something greater. Something bigger than ourselves.
In questioning the Bible, I think that is the first step to furthering our faith. God says to test Him. Put your faith in Him. Love and serve others as ou would love and serve God. Has there ever been one article or book that you have read that made complete sense? That showed no contradictions? On of the greatest of our gifts is thought. Free will to think what we want. God does not kill anybody in the Bible. God gave us two options: to follow or denounce. By following we are given the best gift of all...true love. If we denounce Him, we are succeptible to punishment. Basically, we forfeited our right to experience true love and the gracious mercy of God. God was showing those two options. Think about your own parents. What would they do if you defied their rules? Would they let it go? Or, would they punish you for your behavior? I'm guessing punish. Now did they do that to show you hate or love? God was showing us his undying love by punishing those who disobeyed. Was it wrong? Rethink that, was it wrong for the One who created us to take it back? No way. The Bible does have some crazy, mind blowing stuff in it. But, God is a crazy, mind blowing spirit.
One of the things that keeps me going in my faith is the question, "Why are we here?" I can never believe that I am just here to exist. That I wasn't created for a greater good. That I wasn't won over by God to love others the way He loves me.
It seems like we both started off the same way in our faith. Going through the motions, but never really forming a personal relationship with Him. I was hanging out with Christians, singing along to songs, listening to the sermons. But, I was never making any connections.
Look, people could sit here all day and tell you their God stories. That may or may not have any effect. But, I do believe that God loves you and has a plan for your life. From all the reading and questioning you do, there seems to be no doubt that you are searching for something to cling to. That doesn't seem freeing. Even though you questioned Him before, He is always looking to hold you in His arms again. And, being the God He is, He can wait. The real question is then, can we?
Josh, I don't even really know how to respond to everything you said, other than to say thank you for your honesty. One time, after sharing something really personal and intimate God did in my life to someone who did not believe in God, they said to me, "whether I believe what you believe or not, I, nor anyone else, will EVER be able to discount what happened to you. I can see it in your eyes...you REALLY did have an encounter with God and no one will be able to change that." And so there's validity to what WE experience personally. There's validity in what you have gone through in your life. Whether I agree with you or not in what you believe, or don't believe, I can't take away what's real to you. As I read your comment, I could absolutely empathize with you. Agree, no...but certainly empathize, and actually completely see validity in your choices. (I use the validity loosely, because I have about 7000 ways to branch off from that statement alone, but won't here.) Anyhow, I feel very challenged by your comment. Not that it has challenged my faith by any means, but I feel challenged because I have never had someone be so candid and honest about their experiences to be led AWAY from God. It poses a lot of questions in my heart as to WHY this has all taken place in your life, and why God didn't hold on tighter. The only answer I can initially come up with is sin. Its what has separated up from God from as far back as Adam and Eve. I'm not pointing the finger at you here...I'm "thinking" out loud...because I'm as much of a sinner as the next. Anyhow, you've given me a lot to ponder, Josh.
I do say a giant AMEN to Ryan's last paragraph. I KNOW God has an undying love for you Josh, NO MATTER WHAT and is longing to have you in his arms once again. Thanks again for being so honest...I REALLY appreciate it.
And thank you Ryan for letting us use your blog for this conversation to play out. : ) BTW...save the date for Mylo's FIRST birthday party!! April 26th. You'll get you're invite shortly.
Josh, thanks so much for taking the time to share. Hearing peoples experience goes a long way to understanding them!
The parts you mentioned about Jesus, and the church not reflecting his teachings, you are correct. I struggle with the same frustrations, the church today does not reflect what Jesus taught, to the point where it makes you sick. Many churches are more like the people that Jesus rebuked the harshest, the Pharisees. We’re happy with our current church, because they recognize this same failure and are sensitive to it, but we still have a long way to get back to what Jesus taught, and live it. It will always be something to strive for, we do believe that we hear in part and see in part until Jesus returns. This is because we’re a broken people and as a result we will have broken churches, but even worse, churches that have got off the deep end. I also believe that the hate some church show towards people is unacceptable and is a clear contradiction to the very faith they claim to be a part of.
I want to apologize on behalf of the Christian church/church body. Some of the things you have experienced are sinful and not of God’s heart.
Kate and I talk about this often, that we’ve gotten far off track to what Jesus has called us to do. We challenge ourselves to be different, even to those in our church if need be because we know it’s become easy to get comfortable with the “Church Today” rather than on what we should be doing as followers of Jesus.
I want you and Dave to know that there are some that have not settled for 1 churches brand of Christianity or a church traditions narrow view, but are really pursuing Jesus and letting him mold our lives.
If you are ever in Ohio, Kate and I would love to have you join us at our church, not to try and "convert" you back, but to just say that as followers of Jesus, we care what has happened to you and your experience in God's church on this earth. We would want to show you that people do love unconditionally, not matter what.
Take care
Jon
I do want to immediately thank all three of you for critically reading and replying to the story of my “Faith Journey.” I think it says a great deal about each of you personally that, despite the fact that my experience details a radically different religious viewpoint than the one you hold, you found a need to examine the story and respond to it in an open-minded manner. I feel as if I have an obligation to type up a quick reply.
Ryan – I did appreciate reading your own story of how you came into Christianity. As far as I am concerned (and our spirited debates notwithstanding) you are one of the most tolerable and genuinely upstanding Christians I have had the experience of spending time with. I always enjoy seeing and talking with you, and I do greatly miss you and Megan both. Asking the question, “why are we here?” is always interesting. As an atheist, I believe that answer is different for every individual. It comes down to each person's values and passions. I generally believe we all determine why we are here subconsciously and follow our passions and interests. We are not here by choice as none of us ever “decided” to be born, but the vast majority of us have decided that life is greater than the alternative and continue to breathe. I do not believe that I am just here to exist either. I believe that I have the potential to do a great amount of good and continually pursue this. God is not needed to do good.
I am not searching for something to cling to as you have suggested. I just do not really feel a need to “cling” to anything. I am confident in my abilities, strive for personal growth, and question my beliefs (religious ones included) regularly by reading and re-reading books and articles on the subjects and through self-examination. I am rarely entirely convinced about anything I believe in but think this is intellectually healthy. Few people are 100% correct all of the time. This is one thing that worries me about people of faith. I find their ultimate conviction in their religion frightening.
Kate and Jon -
I am going to have to respectfully decline your invitation to join you for a church service, though I would certainly enjoy grabbing lunch or coffee with you when I return from the West Bank and Israel in May. (Ryan and Megan, you'll be needed as well!) I'm always excited by the possibility of deep discussion on interesting issues. I'm sure we could all keep it civil!
I shared by story because I think it's good for Christians to have a better understanding of why some people leave their faith. It is usually not attributed to a horrible event where people blame God and stop going to church. This is a misconception. I also do want to clear up that the primary reason for my decision to leave Christianity was not the ideas and actions of my church or many Christians I came across. The primary reason was my examination of the Bible. Keep in mind, I did not just walk away from Christianity, retain my belief in God and go from there. I stopped believing in any god because I realized I was believing in a god because I WANTED to believe there was something bigger, somebody there to take care of us and make sure everything didn't get too out of hand. But I could not support this belief system. So although it is what I wished was true, I acknowledged that it just wasn't. It is not just that I disagree with Christians, I disagree fundamentally with the Bible. Biblical values and the actions of God (mainly in the Old Testament) – I just cannot agree with. I look at Jesus as a moral philosopher – along the lines of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Nietzche, Locke, and Descartes. I agree with some of the things he said (the Sermon on the Mount) but also disagree with some of his beliefs. I do not think he was the son of God, yet that does not take away from the good things he said and did.
I think the God in the Old Testament contradicts greatly with the God of the New Testament. The Old Testament God contradicts the teachings of Jesus. The two testaments are just so entirely different. Even the reason people should follow God is fundamentally different. The New Testament is generally agreeable, the Old can be downright sickening. It is funny to notice the discourse that atheists and Christians use. Most of what Christians use and preach to show the goodness of Christianity and the love of God comes from the New. Almost everything non-Christians use to attack the religion comes from the Old.
Hey Guys! So I am not nearly as intelligent as you guys but I have a comment to leave for Dave and Josh...I have read, in so many words, that you guys like to read and that you attempt to keep an open mind when reading, so let me throw out a book recommendation for the two of you. I think its a pretty good book and maybe its because I'm a believer, but who knows. Ryan actually found it and the name is, I Became a Christian and All I Got Was This Lousy T-Shirt! Its by Vince Antonucci. My goal is to read it this summer when Ryan is home because with Kayley its hard to start anything and actually complete it. Josh, I'm not sure how much access you have to it right now, but when you come back in May we would be more than happy to lend it to you. Its an easy read and you guys would probably finish it in a day or two. Just some food for thought. I'm not trying to push anything on you. Like I said, it seems like you guys are always open for a good read and I think this may be one! I don't mean to intervene, I'm just a mom who thought this was an interesting book!
P.S. I have to say that this discussion is an ongoing one and I love to read new things everyday about it! And Josh, you know that we care about and love you and wish you all the safety while over seas!
Sounds like you know Ryan and Megan...
Kate and I would love to grab some coffee with you some time and talk some more, we're down in Sunbury Ohio though. We make it up to Canton only a couple times a year.
Reconsiling the Old and New Testament is a difficult task. For me, if it was not for the Prophesies of Jesus from the old testament prophets, it would seem very far apart. I consider myself a new testament Christian and really only look at the old testament as a historical perspective.
I think there is a great deal different in the Old and New covenants when looking at the relationship between god and his people. The big one as you mentioned is the judgment of people as they are on earth during old testament times, where as the new covenant it comes upon death.
I do see a big difference in general in the way people viewed life then as well as the law. To understand God's covenant in the old testament you would need to study a covenant under the law in those days. For example, (this is off the top of my head so I doubt it's exact) if a farmer wanted to come to an agreement with another man to watch and protect his land in exchange for crops, they would publicly make a bilateral covenant which states something like "If you do something, I will do this other something in return", and the agreement was a lot of times upon death. To make this agreement formal, they would complete a ritual where they would dig a ditch, cut in half something like a goat, a bird, and a 3rd animal, put 1/2 of the body on each side of the ditch representing both poeple, they would take off all their cloths and wash each other in the blood. This symbolized that if either one broke the covenant that death should come to them or something like that... they would also make this known to the towns people & officials...
Now, please again, don't take that exact... but the idea is, that Old Testament covenants were bi-lateral in nature, the same as the Hebrew word that describes God's covenant to his people. This agreement was not unconditional.
The New Covenant is a Unilateral covenant, like marriage. This goes with not only the Greek meanings in the new testament, but all the examples used in reference to marriage in describing our relationship with Jesus. We are to love our spouse unconditionally, even if they are not good to us. This is how Jesus is to us, he is the only one who even truly can live a Unilateral covenant. His grace covers our attempt.
So yes, I agree, the old & new are very much different and are based on different approaches by God to his people. The one thing that sticks out is that God reveals his plans long term on how he is going to changes things during the old testament.
Law and judgment only came onto man because of sin, judgment would not have been necessary but because God will not let the unclean enter his Kingdom in heaven, he had to pave a way for people to still have relationship with him and be made clean, first in animal sacrifice of the old then in the sacrificial lamb of Jesus in the new.
Anyway, I'm just rambling an tired now :) It's fun thinking through this stuff though, I like having these questions to ponder.
Your friend Jon
John,
Great content. I to was struggling with how to answer the "Old Testament/New Testament" debate. However, like yourself, I do not see a lot of contradictions. I hear this a lot in discussing Christianity because I think it is the easiest target of questionable content (just by simply reading it). I think a lot of people, in today's terms, read BOTH Testaments with the idea that they apply directly to our lives in the year 2008 (like shouldn't we Christians be sacrificing goats on the Sabbath?) Obviously, like your example shows, people conducted themselves in different ways IN DIFFERENT TIMES. The Bible does not only show God's Word, but it is a great historical perspective.
Now, with that said, I am not saying that we manipulate the Bible into what we want it to say. The morals, lessons, inspirations, teachings etc. are still there (this is very visible from the Old to New Testament)...we just have to put them into the perspective of how they affect our lives today and how we can grow from God's Word.
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